Defense… stand 15 yards back on the pull.
Posted by | Posted in Team Skills | Posted on 16-11-2008
At the Sean Ryan Memorial this weekend they had observers for many of the games… which meant off sides was getting called… which meant players were all standing 10 yards back before the pull… instead of the normal 5.
Which meant…get this… players were actually close to a sprint at the moment they crossed the goal line… almost.
It also meant pulls were a few yards shorter since pullers had to stay behind the line.
And so it goes for the few games teams play each year with an observer.
For all the talk about “getting down on the pull”, I’m amazed at how little effort defenders put into being at a full sprint when they cross the goal line as the pull is released.
The last time I saw a defensive squad at a full sprint when the pull was released was during a drill at practice where everyone had to be a) on sides when the pull was released and b) in the end zone when the pull hit the ground… that was the drill. I’m sure you’ve done something similar. But all of the sudden it was natural for everyone to take a couple extra steps back and ensure they were on sides and at a sprint as the pull was released. The visual caught me off guard… because everybody was ~5 yards further back than normal… about 15+ yards back from the line… about 5 yards behind the puller.
At practice:
- make sure the people who pull in games, pull at practice
- pay attention to the timing/cadence/etc of the puller’s run up to know how long it takes for him/her to pull so who can time your run up
- stay on sides
- be at a full sprint when you cross the line… which means you’ll likely need to start about 15 yards back from the goal line to make it easy.
Every game that matters is going to have observers watching for off sides. So if you stay on sides all the time, you’ll be at a disadvantage all year… except in the games that matter.
If you start 15 yards back… build to a full sprint to the line as the pull as released… you’ll feel weird for being so far back… but you’ll actually “get down on the pull”.
Yeah, but everybody knows that, for all that D guys say they’re all about intensity and fire, we’re really just lazy and don’t want to have to do that full sprint every time, nor do we want to have to extend our sprint by starting much before the throw goes up.
Maybe at club with more disciplined subbing it’s a little easier to get the fresh legs in there, but I feel like at the college level if you’re sprinting hard down on every pull of every game like that you’re gonna run out of gas even moreso than usual by the time you get to game 4 or 5. I know I found myself looking to conserve energy wherever possible in college last year, and the opening run was one spot I made sure I never over-exerted myself. Different story when you’re a few-point-a-game guy, of course.
Also, on a different note related to the same topic…lactate threshold for sustaining a full sprint hits at about 10 seconds’ exertion. I would think that the jump from maybe a 75 yard sprint to a 90 yard sprint (these vary of course with pull location and assignment position in the O setup) is likely enough to put most of your d line over that cusp from getting down a little bit later but able to immediately respond to a threat from a fresh O player or being perhaps more on top of the first play but also with a tinge of lactic acid buildup to leave them a smidgeon less effective at responding to that same first play.
Maybe the positioning advantage is superior there. Maybe enough conditioning makes it all moot. I’m mostly just offering potential cop-outs for the lazy
I strongly agree with this post. I don’t find myself on the d-line too often, but when I do, I make a point a starting far back so I can hit the line sprinting.
At Sean Ryan, I tried to do the same thing (paying even more attention to staying onsides, since our team already had one offsides call against us and another would give LPC the disc at half-field). It was satisfying to have my teammates keeping me company in the middle of the endzone, instead of being there all alone. However, I guess the middle of the endzone wasn’t far enough back (you recommend 15 yards in your post, as opposed to the ~12 that I started at), because I found myself having to slow down and perform some weird body movements in a balance of toeing the line and maintaining momentum. It was made even more difficult because the fields weren’t lined (I had previously mentioned to some of my teammates how I thought it was odd that observers could call offsides on unlined fields). In the end, no offsides was called, but I think the pull might have gone out. Oh well.
I thought of more…
Ever see when a good pull happens and the play is single handedly shut down by one guy who sprinted down to guard the initial receiver (maybe a second guy is there to help too)… and everybody gets fired up and that sets the tone for the point, maybe even generating a block right away. In order for that to happen… the defensive player has to sprint down and they have to be guarding the player who is getting the first pass. That doesn’t always happen. But when it does, it’s surprisingly effective.
Roster issues and energy conversation aside… the realty is that teams need not shut down all 7 players on the pull… they aren’t all options. Most of the team pulls up to a jog after ~3 seconds as they see their offender coming to them or their offender is not in the play and you can take more a of ‘help’ position as you approach them. So lets not assume we’re talking about 7 guys making a 70 yard sprint.
If a team does not have the depth to play aggressive defense… they don’t have the depth. But if you plan on being a great team, you need to play aggressive defense. If the plan is to kick it at times.. you can be good, but not great. If it is decided pressuring the first couple passes is not always an option because the best players are too tired to do so… then that should be factored in as part of the strategy and executed from game 1 on… not just in the later games where fatigue has start to set in.
(as an aside, one of the biggest strategical errors I think shorthanded teams make is they play only to win the current game. Assuming your goal is to win them all… teams need to approach the first game like they will their last.. else they find themselves in the quarters, semis, finals… unable to execute what got them there.)
The 15 yard back up is simply adding 5 yards of sprinting (normally teams stand about 5 yards back, I’m saying add 10 to that… 5 for the normal buffer for offsides, 5 to get to a sprint when they hit the line), any scientific talk about lactate threshold, etc should discuss the impact of sprinting 5 more yards.
If teams/players plan on jogging down on the pull anyway.. at least stand 15 yards back in solidarity with players who will sprint.
are you actually sugesting tha teams and players should blatently disreguard that rule, and by doing so sotg as well, when there are no observers present? And people wonder why 1) most normal floks find ultimate people to be kooky (and hypocrates) and 2)there are refs in every sport but ultimate.
@Toad did you read the article?
He never mentioned breaking any rules. No rules say you need to start at a stand still, just that you can’t cross the line before the disc does.
mitch, i though he said “if you stay on sides all the time, you’ll be at a disadvantage all year”. Was he not implying that in unobserved ultimate it is advantagious to disreguard the rule (and in doing so disreguard sotg) and just go offsides?
Toad, I’m not sure that making an observation (here, the implied “teams go offisides with frequency in unobserved ultimate”) is the same as suggesting that players and teams SHOULD do that.
Idris, I like your reasoning, especially with the very common occurence that it only takes two guys getting down quickly to stop the flow. Re: the bit about shorthanded teams, I think it’s hard to keep yourself restrained early for the later games’ sake if you’re playing a team close to your ability. Nobody cares about being fresh for the chumpionship (or maybe some people do, in which case your reasoning makes more sense). Even with a goal of winning them all, you generally need to win the first game first.
mackey……dont be such a dumbass and read between the lines. He is saying that:
1) only the games that matter have observers (with the exception of wfdw comp)
2) if you stay onsides in unobserved games you are basically a dumbass
3) if you go offsides in games that matter you are an even bigger dumbass
if this isnt an endorsement and recomendation to go offsides in unobserved ultimate i dont know what is. Not that anybody needs him to point that out. Its common knowledge and why (as you say) teams frequently go offsides.
On a different level……isnt this blatent disreguard for, and a slap in the face to, the whole sotg establishment? And if the foundation of sotg is so weak that players cant follow the simpleist and most black and white aspect of the rules then isnt sotg a big fuckin crock of shit?
Good thing that one Ironside dude didn’t sprint down all the way on that last point of the first half. Is that where you got the idea for this Take?
Toad:
I think you read a few of the points but failed on the connection.
The main point is:
IN THE GAMES THAT MATTER, (observed ga,es), offsides will get you; and
getting upfield without getting called for offsides is good.
Therefore, while cheating may get you an adavntage in unobserved games, it won’t help whem it matters. SO… might as well practice and play like it matters - I.e. practice getting down on the pull WHILE STAYING ONSIDE.
I’d further argue teams can enforce this in unobserved games - several teams I’ve seen put a sideline player on the pulling team’s goal line as they pull, and signal when the puling team is offside, for the on-field players to call if they want. So I’d say Idris’ observation extends even beyond observed games.
In short: practice staying onside, it’ll pay off.
can we move towards having 2 gunners run down field, and communicate switches? at the same time, a great reason to have matching uniforms on your team… so that on the pull, you can shift around, so that you all look alike. i love the move where when the pull goes up, you run behind 2 guys and then jog upfield hoping puller will mistake you for the other guy with matching socks, shirt and hat. all the more reason for matching short haircuts, hats or not, and same length socks
I enjoyed reading this article. I’ve heard people call offsides (Mostly from hecklers watching the games. I’ve also never been to a tourney with observers, so I suppose I’ve never been to a game that matters. hehe) but never understood it completely until now. Also picked up some strategy tips on setting up defense. Didn’t think good \pulls\ were that crucial to a game but now I think differently.
It doesn’t matter if only two or three guys are running down to cover the handlers. It will be the same two or three guys every point, since most teams stick with the same matchups. That’s 80-100 points over Nationals.
And a note for the lazy/efficient: starting 15 yards back will allow you to back off on your maximum effort and still get down just as quickly, since you are near your max speed at the line instead of having to ramp up. I don’t know the numbers, but going at true max effort sprint is much more taxing than going at near max effort.
Of course pullers trade off hang time versus length, but has anyone timed their hang times and figured out how fast defenders get down and adjusted their pulls as a result?
idris…..i think we need a clarification on the meaning behind the second to last sentence of your blog post.
sideline……practice staying onsides???? seriously??? you speak of it as if it were a skill. ate up!
Toad, it’s obvious. Idris is saying that, regarding the pull, while the other team might not always be playing strictly by the rules, your team should. Always. Even when this is a disadvantage.
So he’s saying exactly the opposite of what you’re accusing him of saying.
itchy, is your name idris? I didnt think so. So shut the fuck up how about.
Idris, please. set these chumps straight!
Like certain other skills, you don’t need everyone on the team to be brilliant at running down on the pull. Add a great hucker to an intermediate team and they improve noticeably. Add 2-3 good sprinters to run down on the pull, and your defence will improve noticeably.
Of course, getting all 7 defenders to start back from the line is a simple habit for getting those handler defenders to hit the line at speed.
hey folk.. you and me shar a common name .. why cant we two have some thing to exchange in common..
Okay this post is a little stale for a new comment but I saw something interesting at NW Regionals. Cal was playing a lot of zone and when they would get ready to pull, everyone would be 10 yards back or so, except that their deep-deep (who was not the puller) would step up and toe the goalline. Since he had no need to sprint down, he stood there until after the pull was released and served as an extra visual cue for everyone to be aware where the goalline was so that they could get close to the line and still avoid offsides. The coaches confirmed that this was by design; I thought it was a pretty great idea.